Summary
Jon Foreman of Switchfoot (link) discusses the journey of faith, doubt, and the rejection of labels. We delve into the topics of deconstruction, being hurt by people claiming Christianity, and the complexities of using “Christian” as an adjective. We also explore the idea of embracing community over tribalism in today’s divided culture.
Transcript
Nate: I tell Shelby all the time, like, you know, you are, I think, my favorite songwriter out there. Just the, the words that you write with, the meaning that you write with. Yeah. Like, you brought me to tears many times, been to many shows. So it’s an honor to be talking to you today.
Jon Foreman: I’m honored to be talking to you both. Yeah. Thank you for taking some time to hang.
Nate: I want to start, like, kind of at the beginning. Right? So you’re raised as a pastor’s kid. You know, our show is Almost Heretical. A lot of our audience, people that have evolved sometimes out of their christian faith, sometimes in their christian faith, we have, you know, pastors and missionaries that listen to the show. We also have people that are like, I don’t want anything to do with the church. It’s all over the place. But what we want to create is a safe place for people to question, to doubt, to wonder, to be in different places. But it’s okay, right? And we’re all going to keep talking about this stuff together. So I’m curious for you. Raised as a pastor’s kid, first of all, just like, what was that like? I’m just curious, like, if you could describe your upbringing, your childhood, your relationship with church, growing up, like, all that. Give me that story.
Jon Foreman: Yeah. So I’m reminded of a Nietzsche quote where he says that, you know, the finite only has meaning in reference to the infinite. And I think for me, looking back, when you’re a kid, you have no reference point at all. What you see around you is what is. And you assume that that’s what everyone experiences. And it’s only when you begin to travel, see different countries, different ways of looking at the world that you realize that your unique upbringing is unlike anyone else’s. So my experience as a pastor’s kid, I and my brother Tim, who’s also in switch foot with me, we had really a unique experience. My dad taught me stairway to heaven, which is nothing, a normal, like, song for a pastor’s kid to be learning, especially learning by being taught by his. His dad, who’s the pastor.
Nate: Yeah.
Jon Foreman: And I feel like that kind of says a lot to who my dad was. I think he. He. Maybe he sees the world a little different. I think that. That the delineations we put around ourselves saved, unsaved, christian, heathen, agnostic, hopeful, all these things. I think I understand the meaning and the sentiment, and I do think that certainly our left brain wants to label things and put them in a box, but I don’t know that the boxes are healthy for humans. And maybe my upbringing had something to do with that particular experience.
Nate: Yeah, I remember just when I was. I was a pastor for years and planting churches and just. We use that term a lot, like the world, you know, like. Or worldly or, like, I think, like, later I kind of started questioning that, like, why? Yeah, why do we. It’s like us and the world, you know, there’s a lot of this us and them, and we’re seeing it a lot in society. You know, we talk about, like, the presidential debates out there and all this stuff. It’s always us and them or you guys and us over here, and just there’s these. Everything’s become so polar. Right. And so I appreciate that you bring up these labels that we put on things. Yeah. It’s not. I don’t think it’s helpful. It’s not healthy, and it only serves to divide people. Right.
Jon Foreman: Yeah, well, and it’s also really interesting when you’re attempting to create art with that as the framework where, you know, it feels like more of a team sport than it does an artistic foray into the unknown, you know, like, whose team are you on? Well, what, you know, and I feel like my favorite art is the stuff with fangs and claws that you’re not really sure where it’s coming from and could devastate you one way or the other. You know, that that’s. That’s my favorite stuff. And I feel like, um. I think. I think the reason why I like that is because it rings true to life. I think life is devastating. Beautiful, horrible, wonderful, terrible. Um, and all of it at the same time, you know? And. And when it feels like something is safe for the whole family, I begin to question whether it’s true or not. You know, death isn’t really safe for the whole family, nor is life. And I don’t know. I understand as a dad, I’m. I don’t allow my kids to play in the freeway or anything, and I’m, you know, you’re trying to pick songs that are going to be, you know, the right questions and answers to be asking for the age. But I do think that something in the church changed to this protective, walled city rather than attempting to wrap our arms around people and love them, you know?
Shelby: How do you raise your kids? The same or different, or maybe some of both as you were raised?
Jon Foreman: What’s the phrase? There’s no. There are perfect parents, but they don’t have kids yet.
Nate: I like that. I’ve never heard that.
Jon Foreman: Oh, my gosh. The moment you have kids, you’re like, oh, my gosh, I have. There’s no stones to throw. I have no stones. I don’t even know how to do any of this, you know, so I can pontificate all I want about the philosophy. But then when it comes to, like, actually being on the field, you know, playing the game with your kids, like, there’s so many moments where I’m like, what am I doing? You know, my daughter, she. I mean, even from the age of, like, three or four, she started somehow she heard about, like, predestination, free will, and she’s like, yeah, I. Dad, it’s all predestined. I don’t believe in free will. And it was this thing where. So, like, every night, tucking her in, I would. I would. That was our conversation, you know, and I would be the one who. I would just tickle her until I’d say, I have no choice. It’s not my. I didn’t want to do this. And finally she would, like, be like, fine. I don’t think. I don’t think that. Yeah, she would consent to maybe that there is some form of free will, but, yeah, as far as my kids. Yeah, I’m hoping to. I just hope that they see it’s a big world with a lot of different, wonderful, beautiful, horrible things happening that I think when you can be open to new situations and new understandings of the world, then maybe you can come to understand other people and maybe even God in a bigger way rather than a smaller way.
Nate: Yeah, I know, that you never wanted to be a Christian. The christian rock band or the christian alternative band or the christian singer songwriter. You resisted that christian label. Why do you. I think you talked about this a little bit earlier, right? About art. So you talk about that a little bit. Like, is that why you resisted the Christian label? And then also, did you ever feel pressure to, you know, with Christian. Not the label Christian, but, like, there’s christian music labels out there, record labels out there.
Jon Foreman: Yeah.
Nate: Christian radio. I was in christian radio in Los Angeles for years, and it’s a big. It’s a system. It’s a machine. Did you ever feel pressure from that world to kind of fit into something or to be something? Yeah. How’d you deal with that?
Jon Foreman: Yeah. So, true story today, there was a clown who was. He’s juggling and doing these things, and he recognizes me. And as I’m passing, he’s like, hey, you’re from switch foot, right? I’m like, yeah, yeah. He’s like, you’re that christian band. So I. You know, I had this conversation with a clown earlier today.
Shelby: Wait, in what setting did you just run into a clown?
Jon Foreman: It was. It’s at, like, this fair that we’re playing at. So he’s. Yeah, and so I’ve had this conversation many times before. Never with a clown.
Nate: There you go.
Jon Foreman: But, yeah, I just. I feel like Christian, as an adjective, is an incredibly high and lofty thing to self apply that I don’t really feel comfortable doing. I mean, I don’t know that songs can actually possess that adjective. I think maybe human souls alone and maybe actions. The actions that we do, you know, the way we treat each other, the way we love each other, but maybe not, like, how we get into the chorus, you know? And, you know, for me, like, I think that, again, those delineations that we put around ourselves and around others do more harm, especially in this instance, than good. If I want to be singing songs of hope for everyone, why would I put a label that I’m not sure exists on, you know, songs? So that that’s kind of. I’m always so honored and flattered when anyone would, like, affiliate me with the name of Christ. I feel like that’s an incredibly high honor to say yes, this man and his songs possess a self sacrificial love of someone who’s willing to die for other people. I mean, wow. I don’t know that that’s really what they mean, though, when they hear the chorus, so. Yeah. And I think it’s also. I think it’s as much as it’s a kind of silly conversation to have, I think it’s a really healthy thing to talk about because our occupations, especially in a modern sense, are so, so far removed from. From who we are. Like, I am. Like, we delineate our lives in such funny ways. I’m a Padres fan. I’m a this. I’m a that. I’m a surfer. I vote this way. I do this. But the reality is we’re one essence. Right. And I think that even as silly as the conversation is to talk about, like, a genre, it sometimes can be really illuminating in the way that we treat our existence here on the planet. Yeah.
Nate: And everyone wants to know, like, where do you fall on this? Right. And you probably get this a lot as a, you know, problem. And people email us and they want to know, what’s your stance on, what’s your belief, what’s on this point? What do you, you know? And I get why some people want to know those things, and I’m not going to ask you, like, the real tough questions today, but, you know, like, I’ve heard interviews and just, like, people want to know those kind of things because I think it’s just, it comes back to the whole, like, divide. Right. And they want to know, where do you fall on that? Are you on my team or are you on this team? Are you on the labels on stuff? Put jerseys on stuff, right.
Jon Foreman: Yeah. And I do think we’re in a really strange season because in times past, the jerseys and the teams were fairly easy to decide. Italy, for example, up until, I think, it was World War two, Italy was a bunch of small, little feudal states. They spoke the same language, but they would all invade each other and kill each other from time to time, city on city. You were your city’s team, and that was it. Then it expands a little bit. Italy becomes one nation, and you say, okay, well, now we’ve got a new team. With the advent of the Internet, I think the town, the village, the community is who you interact with on Facebook, meta Instagram, Twitter, and that becomes your village. And you’re so surprised when somebody has a different viewpoint. It’s shocking because you’re like, how you. But you’re. You live next door to me. How is our village? How can you possibly think like that? Because we’re inundated with one thing, and I do think we’re looking for connection and we’re settling for tribalism because it’s so much easier to find a common enemy than it is to find a common love. So I think that it will be interesting to find 50 years from now where we have moved past that, found a way to connect without just settling for tribalism online.
Shelby: Wow, I can see why you’re such a good songwriter. Even the way you talk, you just, you’re dropping one liners everywhere. Like, oh my gosh, that’s an incredible thing you just said. We’re looking for connection, we’re settling for tribalism. Like, wow, that’s really profound. I’m a linguist and so I love that you brought up the fact that Christian used as an adjective just doesn’t. I’ve kind of felt that way for a while that. Yeah, I mean, the original use of it is a noun that, you know, someone would say, I am a Christian, or those are Christians. And what does being Christian mean to you? If someone was to ask you who maybe wasn’t a Christian and you were to say that you were one, what would that mean for you?
Jon Foreman: I think it all comes down to loving your neighborhood, loving God, and loving your neighbor. But loving your neighbor is much more quantifiable, you know, and maybe that’s how we love God.
Shelby: You know, I think that’s what God would want.
Jon Foreman: I mean, it’s, if his commandments mean something to us, I suppose, then, yeah. Yeah. And it is, it is. I think it was Martin Luther King he’s talking about. The main question. The big question is, what are we doing for others? And I think that that is the question at the root of what does it mean to be Christ like to be a Christian? And it’s interesting because Christianity, you’re a linguist, you would probably know this more than I would, but I think the etymology comes, it was almost a derogatory slur at first, where it was like, almost like a way to kind of make fun of, oh, yeah, you’re a Christian.
Shelby: Yeah. Like a little Christ or something.
Jon Foreman: Yeah. And then it was. And then, you know, the folks that, that believed said, oh, no, yeah, that’s great. We’ll take that slur upon ourselves. I love it, but I do hesitate in calling myself a little Christ. I would love for someone to live with me for a couple weeks and say, no, that’s totally you. But I live with myself every day and I’m hesitant, reticent to self apply that term.
Shelby: Yeah, well, how different things would be if we took a the term. I mean, you just use the term christlike as well. And I mean, at least in my understanding of Christianity and of Jesus, I think that’s what he was going for. Was for us to just be christlike. And at the very least, that would make for a wonderful world if we generally lived that way. And so, yeah, how different it would be if we replaced all uses of the word Christian with Christ. Like, you know, I’m a christlike person, or you, you know, we’re a Christ like music band who would say that?
Jon Foreman: Like, very few people. Like, if I would walked up to you, oh, yeah, are you christlike? And I mean, it gives you pause.
Shelby: Where you think, right, because it’s suddenly actually about who you are and what you do, not just what you believe. Which is funny that we say that because at least the way we were raised, in conservative evangelical cult contexts, that would be. I think that the. What people would be shouting in response to what I just said would be like, no, it’s not about what you do. It’s supposed to be about faith and not works. But it’s funny how we come full circle, I think, to realize that, at least for us, we’re not really worried about earning our salvation at this point. We don’t really believe that hell is a christlike concept. And so when you kind of let go of that and you’re no longer trying to figure out, how do I make sure I don’t go to hell? Then you’re free for it to actually become about works because you’re not trying to achieve anything, you’re just trying to be christlike. And anyway, all that to say just, yeah, if we were to not have the word Christian and we were starting to use the word christlike, we would be under a lot more conviction to become more christlike. It’s easy to say I’m a Christian because I believe such and such. It’s a lot harder to say I’m Christ like, because I’m like Christ.
Jon Foreman: Yeah. And I mean, even the concept of a convert versus a disciple, which is the true, what we’re called to be in the world, not a convert but a disciple. I mean, I think that suddenly that carries a weight and a heft that calls action onto the playing field, you know? And it’s not just, I think, I mean, you can play the scriptural dance of faith without works is dead, but I’m saved by faith, not by works, so that no one can boast. I mean, you can do all of those things. But I think at the end of it, if we’re to be imitators of Christ, then, yeah, I think that that is a better application of how to handle that word. It is. I mean, it’s it is funny, too, because it really comes back the team. Team mentality. Red Sox versus Yankees. You know, what, what are you, what are you, who’s your team? You know?
Shelby: Yeah. Which I think, I think we talked to Barbara Brown Taylor. I don’t know if you’re familiar with her, which just reminds me of, like, her mentality as she’s a Christian who teaches religion, many other religions as well, and has interacted with them. And, and her mentality is that being christlike and living in the way of Christ is something that anyone could do no matter what religion they adhere to. And I just think that’s such a fascinating concept. But I’m curious about, I mean, a big theme for our audience is doubt and questioning and kind of coming up against a wall or seeing cracks in your original faith and having it morph and change. And I’m curious, has doubt. How has doubt. I know doubt has played a role in, at least in your music. Some of the songs that you’ve written are just, they shine such a light on the experience that people have had. The song Jesus. I have my doubts, of course, but, yeah. Can you talk about that for us? Like, what has that been like in your life and what are some maybe crucial moments that you’ve encountered?
Jon Foreman: Yeah, I think faith and doubt are flip sides of the same coin that from an empiricist, post enlightenment, rational mind. Truth is something you can put in your pocket, fold it up on a piece of paper, and pull out whenever you want. It’s ownership. It implies an entitlement, almost. And I think that when it comes to things that the spiritual realm that transcends the test tube, you know, these are like love or anything that really matters the most to any of us. These are things that I think you’re entering into the world of faith or doubt. And the irony is that all of the things that we would live or die for transcend the empirical realm, you know, and maybe I think about all these things a lot because I went to a, I went to UCSD, which is kind of medicine based, very science. I was one of the only christians that I knew, you know, in most of the classes that I was taking, chemistry and math, and I was an econ major. And, like, weird thing where you’re kind of writing songs and you believe in something that transcends the numbers, and you’re the only one that you know that does this, you know, so you start to have to kind of come up. You’re kind of justifying your existence continually, even just internally, like, why do I write songs? It’s not going to cure any disease. It’s not going to keep a bridge from falling down. And I’m still drawn to it. And why do I believe in anything that would be spiritual other than physical? So I think the song became a receptacle to handle questions and ideas that spilled out of the conversations that I could have with classmates or even in church. I don’t think that doubt and questions can be. It can be a really formidable place to kind of bring these things up, unfortunately. So I think songs became the vehicle that allowed me to move through questions, doubts, fears, God, girls, sex, politics, war, death, disease. It’s like, oh, yeah, songs are. I can sing about that in front of thousands of people and feel completely safe, and. And that became like a superpower.
Nate: The term deconstructing, deconstructing my faith, that’s a big term right now. It’s a big term for our audience. And I’d say over the last ten years, that term and the people deconstructing has just been like wildfire. It’s been going crazy. And I think churches are responding to that and trying to have an answer to deconstruction. Position on deconstruction and, like, kind of trying to control it, right. And put, like, some rules around it. Like, here’s how to deconstruct but still come back to, you know, basically the same faith you had before. And I was telling this to someone the other day, I feel like when I think about you and your music, it’s gone with me through. There’s a lot of musicians I don’t listen to anymore from the christian world. And I. Obviously, you’re not a christian band, but there’s a lot of musicians that haven’t gone with me on this journey. But I feel like your music, I’ve continued to listen to it and I’ve continued to. Even though a lot of my beliefs have changed, a lot of my certainty and certain faith has changed. Your music has. I’ve been able to keep listening to it. And I told someone the other day, I was like, I feel like you have been deconstructing since the beginning. Like, before this was like a term you’ve been. If the. If the term means you’ve been picking up pieces of your faith and picking up pieces of your worldview and picking up pieces of. And looking at it and saying, what is this? And why do I have this? Or why does everyone look at this as important? But I don’t see that piece as important or this other thing is important, but this other one’s not. Like, if that’s what deconstructing is and filtering and sifting through stuff, I feel like that’s what you’ve been doing with your music since the beginning. I think of instead of a show and all God’s children and meant to live most of your songs, you’ve been doing this. Maybe just talk about deconstruction a little bit.
Jon Foreman: Yeah, I think I have a lot of thoughts on it, but I think ultimately, everything in the garden will fall back to dirt and become something else, and everything man made will crumble and become dust. And so I love Kierkegaard’s delineation between Christendom and the church, because I find that we oftentimes are buttressing and protecting christendom, when, of course, every building will fall, every man made structure, and, of course, humans are doing wonderful, horrible things all the time, in and out of the church. But I think that if I believe in something that transcends that, then that is something that will outlive the christendom that I’m a part of, for all of its beauty and flaws. There’s a book called the Finite and Infinite Games by James Carse, I think, and he talks about the finite game is the game that can be won. It’s played with rules. It’s played on a finite field. It has a beginning and an end. The infinite game is the game that is played to continue the play, that justice is an infinite game. Love is an infinite game. Art is an infinite game. And at every moment, we have the choice of which game we will lend our time, energy, money to, you know? And as far as deconstruction is concerned, there’s so many things that will fall apart without me having to think about them or touch them. You know, like the western church is filled with many things that other parts of the world would. Would call not just almost heretical, but truly heretical that we think of as normal, and I’m sure, vice versa. But I love the garden metaphor because I feel like for me, especially in the season right now, I’m prone to think of my life in the didactic delineation between failure and success. And this is a really horrible place to live, because I have a lot more failures than I do successes. And yet, when I think of the metaphor of the garden, things within me need to die. That new things can be born and come to life and bloom, and letting go of the past is something that can be celebrated. And instead of thinking of man, I failed for 15 years, and I believed the wrong thing or whatever to say no. I’ve grown and I’ve learned and I’ve become come. And the world is bigger to me now than it was before. And not to be afraid of that. If God is truly a God that you can step into the ring with and actually throw punches and not knock him down, that’s probably a good thing.
Nate: Yeah, I love that. I love the term evolving much more than deconstructing, because deconstructing has this feels like we’re taking things apart, and it’s like, you know, like, where’s the end? Like, once it’s apart, like, what do you do then?
Shelby: Do you just have nothing?
Nate: Yeah. Do you just have nothing? There’s nothing left but, like, evolutionary evolving, personal evolution. Like, that just feels so much more. So much more true. Cause in a sense, like, we’ve always been doing that. Even. Even back when you thought you had all the answers and everything was. Was certain. Well, that was the season, right? Like, that was. That was part of your evolution, was building up that certainty to then realize that, oh, that certainty I thought I had. That’s not real. I can’t actually have that. And so, yeah, that’s the term. Like, evolution is spiritual evolution or evolving in my faith, that’s been one that I felt onto a little bit more. But you bring up garden, and it feels like a perfect segue. Right. You even mentioned the word bloom. This new album, in bloom, I’m just curious. You could talk about a little bit, where did these songs come from? Is it a lot of the stuff that we’re talking about right now? Yeah, talk about the new album. I’m excited about it.
Jon Foreman: Yeah. So in bloom certainly represents the garden metaphor. I was attempting to write the follow up to departures. I was hoping to write an album that would be called arrivals. And so I was. I had, like, 30 plus songs, and I was chasing it down, and it was. It. It kept getting worse and worse. Like it was running away from me. And the phrase came to me that death is the only arrival. And. And I saw. I. I was playing the. All the songs for my brother. At the same time that I’m chasing this one end of arrivals, these other songs kept coming to me, almost annoyingly so, that were. They had no place on the record. And so I’m playing all these songs for my brother, and he’s. He says he’s always been smarter and better looking and all of that than me. And he says, you. You made a good record, but it’s not the one you were trying to make. You should put this one out instead of that one. So that’s what in bloom is. It’s actually truly just a letting go. It’s a reluctant release that I think is perfectly the perfect receptacle for these songs, because I feel like the songs themselves are representing kind of a letting go of sorts. And I think that for me to be in bloom, it has meant that I have needed to see the past and the dead things that I have tried to hold onto and bring to life, to let them go and let them fertilize whatever future blooms might come. And that’s what the record represents to me.
Nate: Yeah, I love that. I also, as a. As a person who tries to write songs, and there’s probably a lot of people out there like that to go that to say, you have 30 songs that you’re ready to go for another album, they’re like, okay, scrap it. I’ll just write these other twelve. It’s like, we’re talking, like, 40 plus songs here. I know for a while you were writing a song a day. Do you still write a song a day?
Jon Foreman: I love writing songs. The funny thing is, I have no. Like, I could write several songs a day. They’re not good, necessarily, but, like, um. I. I just don’t have time anymore with kids. I’m like, yeah. It’s like. And it’s more just like, I’m coming to the point where I’m like, I don’t. No one needs these songs. No one needs this many songs. I just want one good one. That’s all I want.
Shelby: Yeah, this. This guy. This guy makes up songs around the house all day long, just about whatever we’re all doing.
Jon Foreman: See, I think that, like. And I think, man, I do think that songs are just such a beautiful thing. I love. My kids will just sing songs around the house. And I think about all the songs that have been written that have never been, like, recorded or written down or, you know, disseminated to the rest of the world. Like that, you know, God remembers all the stuff that money forgets. So I. That, you know, your songs are somewhere, you know. Right.
Nate: Or all the songs that were lost to time because we didn’t have, like, the notes app or the voice memos app on phones. Like, yeah, what happened 30 years ago? You know, before you get to a tape player or tape recorder, like, it was gone. It was gone, so.
Jon Foreman: And who has money to record it? That’s the other thing where you’re like, you know, back in the nineties, you’re like, well, save up some money. And then you think to yourself, is this song really that good?
Nate: Totally. And now you can just drop something low quality, put it on TikTok, and, I mean, it’s. It is a cool thing, right? The. The era we’re living in where these. This people are getting famous. They’re getting. They’re getting noticed because of their music. Because of their music. Like, they’re getting noticed all the time. It’s not some label that’s reaching it. They’re just. Yeah, that people wanted it. So then they’re like, hey, put this on Spotify. They’re like, okay, and now you have. What’s the guy? Noah. The. Noah Khan is how you say his name. Like, you know, like guys like that. It’s like, boom, he’s made on TikTok. It’s. It’s crazy. It’s awesome.
Jon Foreman: He is. We got a chance to play a festival with him a couple months ago, and it was phenomenal. It was great to hear his songs. I really like his stuff.
Nate: Yeah. Totally curious what you’re. As we kind of, you know, wrap things up here. What spiritual practices do you have with kids and all that, you know, as you have little time. Right. Like, what kind of practices have you been able to hold on to? Obviously, you know, writing songs, that’s a language, right? That’s. It’s like journaling. Right. So, yeah, I’m curious, what others, or is that your main one?
Jon Foreman: Yeah, no, I mean, I kind of meet with. With some friends, and, you know, that can be really tough with kids and with touring, but that’s a very consistent thing. Tim and Chad, the fellows in the band, to be able to hold each other, you know, accountable and be able to have conversations about that kind of thing. Certainly, I think community is just essential, you know? I mean, for me, I’m a very social person. So, like, those aspects, reading and journaling and praying, I do. For a couple years there, I would go down to the beach at night and sit on this one rock and just meditate and pray and think. And I think I was a better. I was thinking about it today. I was like, I think I was a better person during those years than I am now, so I need to get back into that. But, yeah, I mean, it’s funny, because I do think a lot of the things that we all recoiled against when we were kids that would be under the term spiritual disciplines are the things that really are kind of a lifeline to sanity. You know, like vitamins or anything like that, where you’re like, I guess they’re probably good for you.
Shelby: Vegetables?
Jon Foreman: Yeah, vegetables, fine. And then you start to develop a taste for. You’re like, no, actually, I do really enjoy even yoga stretching, where you’re like, I hated stretching when I was a kid. Now I’m like, oh, no, it’s really kind of fun. If I have time. Who has time for this anymore?
Shelby: What. What advice would you give to someone who’s feeling disenchanted with the church and Christianity, but still wants to maintain some kind of connection to Jesus? Maybe still has a love for Jesus in there, but it feels very clouded by whatever they’ve experienced with the church and with formal religion. What would you say to those people?
Jon Foreman: That’s a great question. I mean, I think I would begin by saying, like, pain and anger and frustration are real, and you’re not alone in that. I think we play, we have had the experience of playing a christian festival and a mainstream festival.
Shelby: Was it a Christ like festival, though? No, I’m just kidding.
Jon Foreman: That’s where I’m saying, like, yeah, it’s a strange thing. There’s a couple weekends where you go back to back and you’d experience one crowd and then the other, and one crowd literally, like, you know, holds up a beer and just is like, you know, here’s to boobs and beer and whatever it is, you know? And it’s funny because I found that much less offensive than something that felt manipulative in the name of God. Because, like, we’re like, yeah, beer boobs. I mean, that, okay, there’s goodness there, right? We could say, but when somebody is using something that is, you know, not just good, but capital g good and doing it in a way that feels manipulative, it feels just like, oh, you. You took something that was holy, and now I’m not sure what to do with it. There’s a Eugene Peterson book that’s called the Jesus Way, where he talks about how way can mean a path, but it also can mean a mannerism, like the way you do something. So, to people that have been hurt by the way that christians have behaved, that, you know, my heart breaks for them. I know what that feels like. But I would say, just keep looking, keep searching, keep. Keep looking for what is truth. And I would say have some getting in the ring and have some late night screaming matches with God and be honest with yourself, with whoever you’re talking to, the stuff about. Because if God isn’t, like, if he’s not able to handle those kind of big questions, then that’s not the God that you believe in anyways. So, I mean, that’s. That’s been my attitude all along, is like, ask the biggest questions, have the biggest doubts, have the biggest fears, and bring them all into the light and then see where you go.
Nate: Yeah, I love that. Okay, I’m gonna to wrap it up. I’m gonna ask a serious question and a not so serious question. So serious question is, you know, hey, we’re getting a little older here, right? We’re not all in our twenties anymore. We’re not writing. We’re not writing 24 anymore. Right.
Jon Foreman: Or 30.
Nate: Right. So, looking back on your career, what do you want your legacy to be? When you’re. When you’re done, you’re already not writing a song a day. So when you’re not writing any songs anymore, what do you want your legacy to be? What do you hope that you kind of added to. To humanity?
Jon Foreman: Yeah, I do want to be a part of community, I think. You know, when I was a kid, songs, I didn’t fit in, and songs were a way to express myself and to be invited to some form of community. And yet now I’m less. I love songs, and I love writing, and I love the studio, and I love all of that, but I want to. That’s not as interesting to me as humans. And, yeah, I just wanted. I’d love to be known for investing in people, and that that would be my thing. You know, I love songs, and I’m still crazy for them. And maybe someday when the kids are out of the house, they’ll have time for a song a day.
Nate: Right.
Jon Foreman: But maybe I’m gonna be bored with it and just would rather spend time in conversation. Maybe that’s the endless song.
Nate: Yeah. All right. So it’s been a lot of years since I’ve been to a Switchfoot or Jon Foreman show, but back when I used to go, I remember one time being at the crystal ballroom here in Portland with the bouncy floors and all that, and everyone jumping around. But in multiple venues, you would always do this thing where you’d, like, climb out into the audience on a balcony or some part of the stage, a light thing. You would want to get out there somehow. I’m curious, first of all, do you still do that? Do you still do that? And second of all, have you ever gotten hurt and give us a story if you have?
Jon Foreman: Yes. And yes. I think, for me, it is a visual explanation of the way I see the world to try and break down the delineation between the stage and the audience. That, for me, is what I’m doing and destroying any form of hierarchical levels. And I still love crowd surfing and jumping into whatever. And, yes, I have gotten hurt. All right, what happened many, many, many times, the worst ones were when a security guard would try to help me, and. And that would always, like, sometimes they grab your belt loop and then you jump, and they just are holding on, and they just bring you down to the ground. And that. That has happened several times in. That always hurts really bad because you’re like. You’re like, I had no. What. How did. I saw where I needed to jump back to the stage or whatever. Suddenly I’m face down. We’ve got several different camcorder footage of that sort of thing. That’s what happened. He was holding me.
Nate: You go back and, like, analyze the play by play to see what could I have done better? Oh, it was a me.
Jon Foreman: That wasn’t me. Yeah, exactly. No, but I. I do love that. That side of music with the solo stuff, it’s a little bit more mellow, and maybe I’m just getting more mellow in my old age, you know?
Nate: Yeah, no, I’ve always thought, dude, I’ve always thought it’s so cool, like, the after shows that you do. I have a lot of those, like, recordings off YouTube. I, like, I took the audio of those and, like, I wanted those versions of the songs because. Yeah, I remember, like, joy is your birthmark or something like that. Like, listening to that, even the more so than, like, the recorded version, I just love those. It’s just you and, you know, 100 people or whatever, you’d always hang out behind the venue after the show, and just. I feel like you’re always. You’re one of those people that’s always trying to give more than you take and create that experience for other people. And. Yeah, so to hear you say that, that you wanted to tear down kind of that barrier, I just love that. And I think that’s what people have. That’s what I’ve experienced from your music, and I’m sure. Sure others have experienced that, too, just the way you’ve given and continue to give to everyone.
Shelby: And in that case, I think you could say accurately that you would be a christ like musician.
Nate: Yeah, there you go. Full circle.
Jon Foreman: Whoa. Whoa.
Nate: Jon, thank you so much for hopping on and doing this, and I hope you keep writing many, many more songs, and I’m going to enjoy every single one. So thank you.
Jon Foreman: Thank you, Nate. Thank you, Shelby. And thank you for your questions and, yeah, honored to be a part of it.
